Thursday, February 09, 2017

Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#1  Postby bonuntr » Sun May 27, 2012 8:38 pm
Hi and thanks in advance for any help...

In 1966, my late father was digging a sewer line for a rental property that he was fixing up to rent. As he was a metal detecting enthusiast among many other things, he ran his old metal detector along the bottom and sides of the new trench. He uncovered this curiosity at 6 ft. 6 1/2 inches in depth. From what research I have been able to do, the lady pictured on the piece is Lady of Elche, of what is now Spain. The writings around the outside of the piece appear to be cuneiform? I do not believe the piece is a hoax, as the property had never been dug up at that depth before, the patina seems to be correct, and who in the world in central Utah had heard or cared about Lady of Elche enough to make an extensive hoax and bury it to that depth with a extremely slight chance of it ever being unearthed? I would like to mention that I was there when he dug the piece, along with a friend of his. Upon inspection under a loupe, there are a couple of places that may show that it was gold plated when original? I believe the piece is bronze, but may be wrong. Any help or ideas???

Thanks!

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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#2  Postby KsTHer » Sun May 27, 2012 9:09 pm
The images did not come up for me. Do you have a link to them possibly. or can you repost them?
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#3  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun May 27, 2012 9:14 pm
That's quite the artifact to find that deep ... and it really makes you wonder how on earth it ended up in Utah ... I thihk it's interesting that the main portrait exceeds the boundaries of the medallion, the wear on it appears to be what one would expect from something old ... and I think you're correct on the script being that of cuneform ... about what size is this artifact?
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#4  Postby mrjimsfc » Sun May 27, 2012 9:33 pm
The Lady of Elche, reconstructed. She wears her hair in an unusual fashion said by Whishaw to originate in Atlantis. Unmarried Hopi maidens of Arizona still wear their hair in this unusual fashion today

I guess it could be a medalion featuring about any Hopi maiden (since the time of Atlantis). This picture in profile doesn't look much like the statue.
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#5  Postby vedfrenn » Sun May 27, 2012 9:52 pm
Hello Bonuntr and welcome to this forum. Thanks for sharing. I have to agree with you and Whyte in that the markings do look to be some sort of cuneiform. I am by no means an expert and there are those who contribute A LOT to this forum that know way more than me! I googled "cuneiform" and found this on-line picture showing someone using clay to write with similar symbols on your medallion.

Image

I do have a question about the depth it was found at. Could it be possible that as your father was digging the trench, perhaps he didn't notice the artifact was initially at a lesser depth and just kept digging and once the artifact was found by using the metal detector, it had actually fallen to a deeper part of the trench? That seems pretty deep unless it was intentionally buried with something else with perhaps another purpose, like a burial.

And what made you come to the conclusion that it is the "lady of Elche" - which BTW is the first time I have heard of this person so it was an interesting read. Whyte also asked a question: What are it's dimensions?

Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#6  Postby vedfrenn » Sun May 27, 2012 10:35 pm
Just out of curiosity, what does the back of this medallion look like? Thanks
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#7  Postby KsTHer » Wed May 30, 2012 10:28 am
Could it be possible that a major flash flood some centuries ago is responsible for covering this medallion?
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#8  Postby bonuntr » Wed May 30, 2012 10:53 am
Yes, it could be very possible. I have done some research about the 3 acres the piece was found on. At the time the Mormon settlers moved into Omni, (now Richfield), there was a very large indian camp at the area. Note also that in the area, it is not uncommon to uncover gravel zones that show they were main washes at one time. Someone had asked the dimensions of the piece, it is as follows:

4 3/8 inches wide, and approx. 3" tall, thickness is 1/8" to 1/4". The backside, (I will try and post photos later), looks like it was a buckle. The patina on the piece is unbelievable, many, many layers thick in most places. I have tried many times to translate the cuneiform, but only ended up more confused.

Thanks!
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#9  Postby bonuntr » Wed May 30, 2012 10:55 am
Just a quick note, the eyes look like Phoenician sculptures...do Hopi maiden reproductions also have this type of eye?
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#10  Postby KsTHer » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:51 pm
The eyes remind me of the Egyptian eye... hmmm... interesting! Thanks for fixing the pics. They show up fine now.
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#11  Postby KsTHer » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:54 pm
Bonuntr,

Do you have any possible theories about the medallion?
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#12  Postby KsTHer » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:56 am
Bonuntr,

You have a Private Message.

Ron
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#13  Postby sanpet » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:47 am
vedfrenn wrote:Hello Bonuntr and welcome to this forum. Thanks for sharing. I have to agree with you and Whyte in that the markings do look to be some sort of cuneiform. I am by no means an expert and there are those who contribute A LOT to this forum that know way more than me! I googled "cuneiform" and found this on-line picture showing someone using clay to write with similar symbols on your medallion.

Image

I do have a question about the depth it was found at. Could it be possible that as your father was digging the trench, perhaps he didn't notice the artifact was initially at a lesser depth and just kept digging and once the artifact was found by using the metal detector, it had actually fallen to a deeper part of the trench? That seems pretty deep unless it was intentionally buried with something else with perhaps another purpose, like a burial.

And what made you come to the conclusion that it is the "lady of Elche" - which BTW is the first time I have heard of this person so it was an interesting read. Whyte also asked a question: What are it's dimensions?

Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing

reminds me of johnny brewer
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#14  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:54 pm
sanpet wrote:reminds me of johnny brewer


I agree with you Sanpet ... there is a similarity to some of the Brewer Plates ...
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#15  Postby KsTHer » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:41 pm
bonuntr,

I have a possible breakthrough with the Lady of Elche. I don't have permission to share it yet. It is an interesting concept! :")

Ron
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#16  Postby KsTHer » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:39 pm
bonuntr,

There is some new information on the We Nooch Society Website regarding your medallion. I have been trying to get in touch with you for a while with no success.

http://www.wenooch.org/wenooch/epigraphy/epigraphy.htm

This is the link to the page and I am sure Steve Shaffer would like to hear from you.
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#17  Postby KsTHer » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:26 pm
Has anyone seen the article about this in Ancient American Magazine? The Cuneiform on the right says "Mazzaroth" which is a word found in the Old Testament in the book of Job. It roughly translates to "Zodiac". I brought this topic to the attention of a friend who passed it on to a friend who translated it and brought it to the attention of Wayne May and Ancient American Magazine. This buckle or medallion is somewhat out of place (or is it?) and will probably change history. Look for changes on bonuntr's web site in the near future. http://www.ancientinvestigations.com

Oh, I just found out that "Nephite North" has been printed and ready, but due to expense over-runs, it is now $75.00 which is still a good buy. Those who pre-ordered it will still get it at that price. The author gets nothing for his time and effort. The added cost is to help his publisher, Kevin Kraut, break even. This book would sell for over $100.00 based on the quality of the binding and materials. There is a lot of very good information in the book. If you can't afford to pop for $75.00, I may be able to get you a copy in pdf format. :"" If you ordered one, it should be coming in the near future.

If you read Nephite North, the Lady of Elche found in Central Utah may make more sense. ;=)

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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#18  Postby cyberlabs » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:52 am
looks akkadian - Sumerian to me..artistry done by Phoenicians -resembles a find found in peru - the fuenta magna
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_8.htm
highly possible sargon's envoys joined phonecian trading fleets to the new world.

In ancient times cuneiform was used to write: Hurrian, Hittite, Elamite, Akkadian, Sumerian and etc.
Therefore, it is not surprising that the Sumerians, Minoans, Indus Valley people, Libyco-Berber people and Mande used the same writing.

Since the US gov began collecting indian artifacts back in Jefferson's time; it has suppressed nearly all evidence of any claims to the americas by anyone but the native americans and pilgrims and so forth.. Any solid evidence that disproves the theory that indians were the first and only people to have ever settled the americas; undermines the validity of the US gov. So you can see what is at stake here.
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#19  Postby Köszegi fiu » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:31 pm
Just to end this story of "bonuntr" also know as MartinMcCruz in FB.
Yesterday I found this in Ebay - and that makes very clear that it is a rather new item.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/spain-button

Excerpt of Ebay-text:

you can buy it for 89 $ in Ebay ! HUGE! 3"-"LADY OF ELCHE"OLDEST PC. ARTWORK SPAIN~VINTAGE ANTIQUE PICTURE BUTTON
******"lady of elche button"****** Bust in madrid museum~ oldest piece of artwork in spain! When these buttons are gone~~they are gone!!!!! 1940's vintage antique picture button**medallion ?

(I am new here and don´t see possibility to insert a pic - only the link to Ebay). Everyone who wants to see identical and new "button" of ´Lady of Elche´is invited to write to my email-adress and I will send)
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#20  Postby zelph » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:38 pm
Köszegi fiu wrote:Just to end this story of "bonuntr" also know as MartinMcCruz in FB.
Yesterday I found this in Ebay - and that makes very clear that it is a rather new item.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/spain-button

Excerpt of Ebay-text:

you can buy it for 89 $ in Ebay ! HUGE! 3"-"LADY OF ELCHE"OLDEST PC. ARTWORK SPAIN~VINTAGE ANTIQUE PICTURE BUTTON
******"lady of elche button"****** Bust in madrid museum~ oldest piece of artwork in spain! When these buttons are gone~~they are gone!!!!! 1940's vintage antique picture button**medallion ?

(I am new here and don´t see possibility to insert a pic - only the link to Ebay). Everyone who wants to see identical and new "button" of ´Lady of Elche´is invited to write to my email-adress and I will send)


Thanks for the link Köszegi fiu, . Do you know if they are still being produced in Spain as a new item?
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#21  Postby KsTHer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:29 pm
Köszegi fiu,

Look closer at the article. It has patina in some areas which indicates that it has been polished before being placed on Ebay. If you follow your link by clicking on the picture of the item, it will take you to the page where you can "mouse over" the image for a better view. It appears to have had as much patina or nearly the same amount before the polishing job took place.

Or just follow this link...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HUGE-3-LADY-OF- ... 805wt_1105

The lady who placed the medallion or pendant on ebay for sale has no idea where it originated or when it was made. The antique shop where she bought it has had it from around the 40s or 50s. Anyone who was asked could not say for sure either, but the patina on the article indicates older, perhaps much older. You can say that the verdict is in for you if you like, but the amazing tale that this medallion is telling has some very interesting turns. For me the journey has only just begun.

Consider this, it was found at 6 1/2 foot below the surface in 1966. If it was buried there since the 1940s or 1950s, the odds of bonuntr's father finding it are astronomical!!! When was the last major (and I do mean MAJOR) flooding in Richfield, Utah? You can make your judgment based on your assumptions. That's all well and good, but I believe you just overlooked a major find because you chose to end the search with only a cursory glance at the evidence.

I am not going to say that it is a major find, but the evidence that I see tells me that there is much more to this story. In fact, a real study of this item will require a lot of research regarding the flooding of the area involved. A little background info on the area... Richfield is down-canyon from what once was known as Lake Bonneville. Heading up-canyon from this location, many canyon mouths have what appear to be river deltas. With that said, I prefer to believe that it is possible that this item was buried by a flood a long time ago (referring to the original post... not this article on ebay).

Perhaps I am saying too much here, but this item is probably well worth the $85.00 that it is being offered for. I have no association with the seller of the merchandise. I do know of someone who purchased a similar item, however. As I understand it, one of the medallions is being checked for metallurgical traits. I hope to be able to have access to that info, but am unsure how I can get the info on the metals involved.

As I have inferred though, this item has more than meets the eye.

Pertaining to your accusation that bonuntr is MartinMcCruz on facebook, I have no idea. I would like to know how you came to this conclusion however. Rocky aka bonuntr would probably also like to know (unless of course he is actually MartinMcCruz on FB).

Here in the U.S.A., the item sells for $85 so I take it that Köszegi fiu is outside the states.
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#22  Postby KsTHer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:42 pm
Zelph,

They are not being made anymore. The one pictured on Ebay is one of several that were or in the case of this one being offered on Ebay. To my knowledge, this is the very last one. They are much older than the 1940s (at least that is what my research shows). I can not tell you much more... sorry (you know... under pain of death... that sort of thing.)
;=)
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#23  Postby zelph » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:06 am
KsTHer wrote:Zelph,

They are not being made anymore. The one pictured on Ebay is one of several that were or in the case of this one being offered on Ebay. To my knowledge, this is the very last one. They are much older than the 1940s (at least that is what my research shows). I can not tell you much more... sorry (you know... under pain of death... that sort of thing.)
;=)


Therefore I shall not ask for further enlightenment. I shall be patient for the day when further knowledge is sought.

It looks like an item easily produced by the "Lost Wax" process. Could be many more where the one on ebay came from.

I'll watch that ebayer to see it they list another one for sale after the current one has sold.
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#24  Postby KsTHer » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:23 pm
KsTHer wrote:
Has anyone seen the article about this in Ancient American Magazine? The Cuneiform on the right says "Mazzaroth" which is a word found in the Old Testament in the book of Job. It roughly translates to "Zodiac".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGu-QmfNNSQ







Take your pick. This should shed some light on the Lady of Elche/Richfield medallion(s).
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Re: Cuneiform writing in Utah?

Post Number:#25  Postby zelph » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:31 pm
KsTHer wrote:Köszegi fiu,

Look closer at the article. It has patina in some areas which indicates that it has been polished before being placed on Ebay. If you follow your link by clicking on the picture of the item, it will take you to the page where you can "mouse over" the image for a better view. It appears to have had as much patina or nearly the same amount before the polishing job took place.

Or just follow this link...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HUGE-3-LADY-OF- ... 805wt_1105

The lady who placed the medallion or pendant on ebay for sale has no idea where it originated or when it was made. The antique shop where she bought it has had it from around the 40s or 50s. Anyone who was asked could not say for sure either, but the patina on the article indicates older, perhaps much older. You can say that the verdict is in for you if you like, but the amazing tale that this medallion is telling has some very interesting turns. For me the journey has only just begun.

Consider this, it was found at 6 1/2 foot below the surface in 1966. If it was buried there since the 1940s or 1950s, the odds of bonuntr's father finding it are astronomical!!! When was the last major (and I do mean MAJOR) flooding in Richfield, Utah? You can make your judgment based on your assumptions. That's all well and good, but I believe you just overlooked a major find because you chose to end the search with only a cursory glance at the evidence.


The lady on ebay that you talked to said she bought one from the antique shop. How do you account for the fact that she has sold at least 3 according to here sales feed back?

The 3 loops on the back of the madllion/pendant are of the same kind on the buttons that she sells.

If you look closely at the detail on her medallion it's in "new" condition and has no patina. The brush/wire wheel marks on the reverse indicate "modern". The casting sand is still seen in the small crevasses and white buffing compound can be seen on the face side. All indications of "modern".

Again, keep in mind you said, she said, one was purchased

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